The church you pastor recently sponsored an event that featured Tony Jones and Jay Bakker, among others. Can you tell us what the vision for the seminar was?
We have seen a growing number of people who identify with God but struggle with organized Christianity. Among non-Christians—particularly neopagans, which Salem is famous for—God is an easy topic of discussion, but once organized religion enters the dialogue there is often little positive they have to say about it. Jesus has a good reputation among the people we know, but the institutional Church has a bad reputation. Recognizing that this appears to be a trend in our society, we developed the seminar to speak to the issue, to hear from people who typically dislike church, in order to find out why and to discuss how we might make the discovery of God easier for people who don't like church. We expect that this seminar was the first of many on this topic.

You've personally been involved with some unique outreach. How did you become involved with reaching out to the pagan community of Salem?
We moved from Southern California eight years ago to plant a church in Salem, Mass. The two most famous things for which Salem is noted are witches and Halloween. I knew that I needed a missional response to these people called witches and to the monthlong season of Halloween in Salem.

Having been active in missions to non-Christian religions for 20 years, I understood the basic beliefs of American neopagans, but I wanted to understand their culture.

Once we moved to Salem we determined to treat neopagans like any other people group, and give them the basic respect due everyone. I hate to admit that this was unique for an evangelical church, to treat witches like they were regular people created in God's image, but it was apparently a new approach in our city. But we stuck to the plan, and simply treated witches with the same respect we give everyone else, and consequently have developed good friends among Salem's neopagan population.

We also decided that instead of gathering in the church during the Halloween season, we would take our faith to the streets in the form of a party. Salem was already an enormous Halloween party, so we decided to create a party within that party. It started off with a little favor from the city leaders, and since that time has grown to seven days of live music, a children's day with 2,000-3,000 in attendance, 10,000 cups of free hot cocoa, a variety of workshops and ministry tents offering spiritual counseling to thousands of people each October. This Halloween outreach has grown exponentially in the last eight years, and has become a training ground for people interested in learning to minister in postmodern and neopagan contexts.

Your ministry has drawn some criticism. Were you surprised at the negative feedback from some of your peers who said you crossed the line?
Yes and no.

No, we were not surprised, because I remarked early in our move to Salem that it would not be the witches who would cause us trouble, but Christians. Like Jesus, who was not persecuted by unbelievers, but by the religious leaders, we anticipated anger and misunderstanding from certain Christian circles. I assumed witches would be pleasantly appreciative to be treated like real people instead of enemies. I also assumed that many Christians would be fearful, and perhaps even superstitious, about being around witches, and this turned out to be true.

Yes, we were surprised, because our biggest troubles came from our former denomination. They supported our vision, and even gave us a significant grant to increase our outreach to the neopagan community, but when one of the denominational leaders falsely accused us of aberrant practices, they refused to listen to our side of the story and kicked us out. Everyone who visited our church and our outreaches thought we did a great job and effectively preached the Gospel.

Right now there are lots of books and resources for people interested in church growth, technology and church, and even church—marketing topics centered around reaching people who are unchurched. Generally, there aren't too many that discuss connecting people who "hate church." How has this message been received?
We have had almost unanimously positive responses both locally and from afar among Christians, and those who do not follow Jesus. The conference was generally understood to be a discussion about re-visioning the manner in which we gather in our pursuit of God, and finding ways to make God relevant to our society.

What's the biggest challenge in going into communities that "hate church"?
Us.

Christian leaders are the biggest challenge. We do silly things like assume that if people avoid church they must also hate God, or are uninterested in spirituality. We hang out our shingle, or throw our little Christian parties and expect people to show up. We have developed ways of doing church, which may work for some people, but are uninteresting, or even offensive, to others. Instead of changing our style of gathering for those who don't appreciate our Christian culture, we change our style of music, and expect that to be the answer.

Our inability to adapt to another culture makes us the biggest challenge in connecting with those who dislike church.

A lot of up-and-coming pastors and leaders are truly interested in being missional and creating culturally relevant ministry. What's your advice to them?
Listen to the people you want to touch. Learn how they feel about Christianity, and why they feel that way. Don't become quickly defensive and jump to the rescue of the Church. Many people have legitimate complaints, and their voices can be valuable guides in helping you adapt your outreach to their needs and their spiritual passions. This does not mean changing the Gospel message, but it may mean adapting our style of gathering, and our vocabulary.

If you come into contact with people who are part of an NRM (New Religious Movement), or are involved in the occult, do not consider them as enemies to your faith. Treat them with the same respect you would give anyone else. You may end up being surprised to find that they are as normal as you—maybe even more so, since they aren't waiting for some guy on a white horse to come riding out of the sky like we are. ;-)

Find out what people like to do, where they like to go, and find a way to join them and serve them there. It usually works well to find a need and fill it. We saw that people were attending city events in the park like the Chowder Fest and the Ice Cream Social, and they had no place to sit, and there was no music. We offered the use of our $5 plastic outdoor chairs (we have 100) and our sound system. People loved having a place to sit, and we helped make the city look good. This kind of service is a win-win situation. Don't be afraid to serve alongside the people who dislike church.